I don't like situations when a two different branches of sciences discussing the same subject give contradictory results.

 I don't like situations when a two different branches of sciences discussing the same subject give contradictory results. This mean that there is an issue here.

From archeologic point of view the transition from Lchashen culture to Yervanduni era in modern Armenia is well defined.

First there is a major discontinuity with the apparition of Urartian culture after the 785bc. New culture is evident in sites like Erebuni, Argishtihinili, Teishebaini (Karmir Blur ).

While local Lchashen people who do not live in Urartian forts continue to live with their culture. Obviously they are influenced by the politically dominant culture. Which indeed is visible in their pottery, and not only the pottery. ( See the link below ). Later when the Urartu rule disappear, nothing remarkable happens. As far as I know there are no particular changes in material culture when shifting from Urartu to Yervanduni. Offcourse there are those destruction layers that some date at 640bc. But the destruction could be caused by internal turmoil or some other events that do not require new immigration.

This is what has to say the archaeology. Now let's see what is saying paleogenetics.

We have two aDNA from Teishebaini. As expected one of the samples has a typical Vannic Urartian profile. I13035. Very low Steppe and the highest Levantine shift.

Then we have numerous aDNA from Bover, Bardzyal, Harjis and Pijut. There was no data about Pijut but the rest are qualified as LM (Lchashen). Their DNA is fully consistent with their archaeological classification. Their DNA is virtually the same as in pre Urartian period which means that their settlements didn't witness any new migrants. The case of Harjis is even more ironic. This site is in Syunik which was not really controled by Urartu. So this would be the last place to find a Vannic DNA. Moreover they are marked as post-Urartu.

I think it's quite clear why we don't see any important shift in Urartian period. That's because there are no samples from densely populated Urartian sites in Araratian plain and elsewhere. What we have are Lchashen 6 sites in Urartian period.

After the fall of Urartian state the mobility of people living in those forts might have increased and gradually we will see them elsewhere. So I seriously doubt that there was any abrupt genetic shift. Rather gradual which is visible in Artaxiad era samples still having the archaic Etiuni genetics.

I hope another paper will be dedicated to this subject, where we will see more samples from true Urartian sites in modern Armenia.

PS There is another outlier with zero Steppe from Keti. I17184. This sample has the highest CHG coupled with high Anatolia. This pattern is typical to modern Kartvelians. Consistent with it's unusual autosomes it has G2a1 y dna which is popular in modern Georgia and Ossetia. So in most likelihood we see a person of Kartvelian? ancestry in Keti during the Urartian period.

All reactions:

1515

The Biaina puzzle

 The Biaina puzzle

Lazaridis 2022 paper didn't found Steppe ancestry in Urartian Van samples except one outlier from Etiuni. Now the reason for this is the use of EHG as a source in qpadm models instead of Yamna. Davidski opened a topic about this subject yesterday.

In reality Çavush Tepe Urartian samples do have Steppe ancestry. Their level is equal to those that modern Armenians have. Except one sample with ID I19612.

This zero Steppe sample is also remarkable for it's high level of Anatolian farmer ancestry. The Anatolian shift is consistent with it's Y DNA G2-M406. An Y DNA popular in Anatolia. Commentators usually connect the G2-M406 with Hattic Kashkian tribes but in this particular case he can be related to Hittite Luwian people.

Unless this was a random casual migrant/captive we can assume that Van region did have contacts with Anatolia. This finding boosts the Eastern Hittite theory proposed by Armen Petrosyan

It must be noted that Urartian Sun god Siwini has a robust etymology with Hittite word siuni meaning god.

The remaining three samples from Çavushtepe do score an average of 10% of Steppe which is higher than the preceding Bronze Age period singleton. 6.2%.

Offcourse sample sizes are to small to make conclusions but at last we can say that this data do not prohibit us to make some assumptions. The most important concern the spread of grooved ware in 1200bc all over Eastern Turkey which could be associated with Mushki and Urumu tribes. Who almost certainly settled in Van bassein also.

Given that those tribes are proposed to be IE they must have R1b also which is ubiquitous in modern Van Armenians. This data also permits to understand the presence of obvious IE terms like Arzashku, arciv and names like Rusa in Van bassein.

Iron Age samples from Batman also have Steppe but significantly lower. And finally the Bronze Age from Batman has zero Steppe as expected.

Finally I add the North Iraq old Assyrian sample to compare to Van. It has no Steppe at all.

PS It must be noted that this Steppe in Van is the reason why Van Urartu works so well for modern Armenians. Otherwise if we choose I19612 as representative of Van Urartu then models change drastically. Which I inadvertently did yesterday.

All reactions:

1515

We have an ancient Assyrian (East Semitic) sample from north Iraq.

 We have an ancient Assyrian (East Semitic) sample from north Iraq. He is dated to Shalmaneser I period. It has no Steppe and has a shift toward Levant. Something expected for a Semitic person. His Y dna also points toward Semitic background J1. We discussed a lot here modern Assyrian (West Semitic) gene pool. It is quite obvious now that they acquired significant ancestry from neighbouring Indo Europeans later than Assyrian empire existed.

All reactions:

99

Proto Indo Anatolians in historic Armenia. Late Proto Indo Europeans are from Steppe.

 Proto Indo Anatolians in historic Armenia. Late Proto Indo Europeans are from Steppe.

What You think about this theory.

Keep in mind that after Kur-Arax Armenia witnessed an influx from North. Most of ancient Republic Armenia in MLBA and EIA is predominantly R1b and I2a2b (I2c2). The oldest I2a2b is from Trialeti Vanadzor culture 1900bc. There are also J2 , E-M84 that I described. And also G2, J1-P58, and Z1828, T1a1.

So denying the existence of this migration is a waste of time. But You can feel free to give a different interpretation of those migrations.

All reactions:

1919

Endgame?.

Endgame?. Lazaridis says Armenians , Greeks and Albanians descend from Yamna. Also Tocharians. And the Southern Arc paper is out. The link below.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4247

----

It is a remarkable accident of history that Anatolian speakers lasted long enough to leave their writings in cuneiform and later alphabetic writing. If the Anatolian speakers had lived anywhere else we would have no clue they even existed as a sister group of IE

The same for Tocharian speakers: they presumably lasted for >3000 years, long enough to record their languages, even briefly, in medieval times, before their languages went extinct. It's an accident of history that we have evidence for them at all.

And 99% of Indo-European speakers stem from Corded Ware ancestors. It is only three small groups: Greeks, Armenians, Albanians who go up to the Yamnaya not via Corded Ware intermediaries. Many others were wiped out linguistically, e.g. Tocharians and most Paleo-Balkan speakers

It's basically a series of unlikely events that make it possible for us to reconstruct the early history of Indo-Anatolian and Indo-European languages. And, presumably, other important languages were lost, but what survived is, I think, enough to recover the big picture.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ios.../status/1562894181454200832