Friday, April 30, 2021

Saspeirs or Syspiritis from Greek sources is usually linked with historic Sper ( modern town Ispir in Erzerum province )

 Saspeirs or Syspiritis from Greek sources is usually linked with historic Sper ( modern town Ispir in Erzerum province ) 

One explanation to this shift is based on the idea that the initial sa- is a Kartvelian plurial prefix. This theory has one serious problem. The supposedly singular form Sper is not seen anywhere. Not in Urartian, not in Greek and any other sources until Armenian times. More ever Georgian themselves use the form Speri. Without any prefixes. So how to understand this?

Well there can be another explanation to this shift. The Armenian language was quite intolerant to IE sibilants *s. They have undergone various changes, and today virtually nothing is left from initial sibilants. This is not specific to Armenian but has occurred in Greek and Iranian languages also. For example the European number six became hex in Greek while the Sanskrit sauma ( a drink ) became hauma in Iranian. In Iranian there was also secondary tendency to transform s into x.

In Greek and Iranian those shifts occured in early periods while in Armenian the exact date is unknown. But it is quite possible that it occured in post Urartian period.

 Based on known phonetic shifts the term Syspir will sound in Armenian something like susper then will shift into husper. The second [s] will not become a [h] because it had consonant like p ( also t ) after him. This is a well known rule in Armenian.

 But this form husper also will not last long and the initial hu- will drop and only Sper will remain. This dropping of initial laryngeals h is also well known.

 Is there an evidence to prove this theory? Well there is. Strabo mentions a place known as Hyspiratis. Scholars believe that it is the same as the Syspiritis (=Sper). So why would Strabo use two different forms to denote a same place in the same text. Maybe he made an error. But maybe not. The difference between two mentions is the date. Syspiritis is mentioned when discussing old Jason's Argonauts period while the form Hyspiratis is mentioned in the younger context of Alexander Macedonian conquests. In most likelihood between this periods local Armenian speakers had transformed the term into Husper which is reflected in the Steabo's texts.


PS I discussed this subject with Martirosyan and he concurred with the plausibility of this theory. In fact it was suggested by him also. Simply I wasn't aware of that.

You may wonder what kind of material culture Ṣiluquni (modern Syunik) and partly Urtekhi had in Iron Age ( 1200-500 bc ).

 You may wonder what kind of material culture Ṣiluquni (modern Syunik) and partly Urtekhi had in Iron Age ( 1200-500 bc ). 

Here are the artefacts from Keren site ( near Kapan ) in Artsakh republic. Today this site is under Azerbaijani control.

Those artefacts are quite distinct. Not similar to anything we had from other parts of Armenia. 

It would be interesting to compare them to Khojaly site's. But I have no enough knowledge on this subject.

Armen Petrosyan has more Armenian etymologies from Etiuni onomastics

 Armen Petrosyan has more Armenian etymologies from Etiuni onomastics. Notice Urartians were in most likelihood omitting the laryngeal [h]. 


Išteluani is equal to medieval Astelan. Where the root Astel is from the word star (աստղ). Native Armenian root.

Apuni is compared to historic Hawnuni, where the root Hawn can have two different Armenian etymologies. One meaning bird the other grandfather.

Erkua or Erikua is compared to Armenian word two (երկու) which is the same meaning as later attested Masis.

He also proposes Armenian  etymologies for the Abiliani ( historic Abelean ) , Uelikuni ( historic Gelakuni ) and the name for river Hrazdan attested as Ildarunia

Personal names

Qapurini is compared to old Armenian word kap'ur meaning great. Origin uncertain.

Nidini is compared to the word net meaning arrow. 

He discuss the Aluani where the root Alu means good , kind , nice in old Armenian . And it is still used in western Armenian frequently in the form aluor/alvor. Pronounced as aghvor.

He discuss off course Diucini. And the son of Saka (Sagaputara in Salvini ) which is not an Armenian name strictu sensu but goes in line with Khorenatsi reports. Other possible names Cinalib, Tata, Murini.


Aniqu is a goddess of Aza land in Etiuni. It can be compared to Armenian term han meaning grandmother. With extra diminutive suffix.


The story of R1a-M417

 The story of R1a-M417

The branch M417 is by far the most frequent type of R1a in the world. Thanks to the ancient DNA we know that it expanded with Corded Ware culture. The calculated age (TMRCA) of R1a-M417 is 5500 years. It is close to the Corded Ware culture (CWC) formation age ~ 4900 years ago. CWC was a pastoralist culture which rapidly expanded all over North Europe. In North East Europe it introduced food producing for the first time. Replacing completely local foragers.

Genome wide it was derived from Yamna but over time acquired extra European farmers ancestry ( from GAC culture ) . Mostly via female lines. Which made them more blond and light skin than was Yamna.

So here is the short story of main subclades of R1a-M417. It has three branches

L664 - Today it is a rare lineage in Central and North West Europe. But was more frequent in CWC Central Europe. Absent in Armenia.


Z283 - This is the most frequent type of R1a in Europe. It reaches especiay high levels among Balto - Slavic and Germanic speakers. It has three subclades.

> - Z284 is mostly found in Scandinavia and Northern Germanic speakers. It was widespread in Battle Axe variant of CWC in Scandinavia

>- Z280 is widespread in East and Central Europe and Balkanes. It was found in Baltic CWC. 

>- M458 Similar distribution to Z280 but more pronounced in Poland. In most likelihood it's origins are in Middle Dnieper region. Both are Balto- Slavic markers.


Z93 - The oldest case is found in eastern CWC called Fatyanovo - Balanovo. From there it moved to East and South were Sintashta/Andronovo emerged 4200 years ago. Sintashta is famous by it's spooked chariots. An invention usually atribuated to Indo-Iranians.

From there one branch known as R1a-L657 rapidly moved to India where it had a dramatic expansion immediately after the end of Harappan civilisation.

While the Z2124 remained in Central Asia and started to expand in various directions. In East it reached Mongolia where it introduced food production for the first time. Local East Asian foragers who learned the technics of pastoralism from R1a later expanded on its own. And became known as Turkic and Mongolian tribes.

Other branches of R1a Z93 moved to west reaching even Balkanes. They were known as Srubna culture (~1800 bc ). Later in IA another wave reexpanded from modern Kazakhstan who became known as Scythians. And another as Sarmatians And finally some of R1a Z2124 moved to Near East in LBA/IA period. 

Z93 is the most frequent type of R1a in Armenia.

Let's post in this thread links on useful dictionaries

 Let's post in this thread links on useful dictionaries.

In English.

Here is the Etymological dictionary of inherited vocabulary by H. Martirosyan.

An interesting video about medieval Armenian traders in India and an English captain Kidd.

 An interesting video about medieval Armenian traders in India and an English captain Kidd.

The video mentions about the Armenian traders in Philippines.

We have a Y DNA from Philippines with recent common ancestor with Armenians. So chances are quite high that this Philippine and Chinese people had an Armenian patrilineal ancestor.

No recent Anatolian ancestry in Etruscans.

 No recent Anatolian ancestry in Etruscans. An upcoming paper claims this. The extra Near Eastern ancestry in Italy came in Roman imperial period and is not related to Etruscans. Herodotus was wrong.

Դեռ անտիպ։ Էտրուսկները ՉԵՆ գնացել Անատոլիայից երկաթի դարում։ Հերոդոտը սխալ էր։ Մերձավոր արևելյան գեները Իտալիայում կտրուկ շատանում են Հռոմի կայսերական շրջանում և կապ չունեն էտրուսկների հետ։


The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2,000-year archeogenomic time transect

Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History

The origin, development and legacy of the enigmatic Etruscan civilization from the central region of the Italian peninsula known as Etruria has been the subject of scholarly debate for centuries. Here we report a genomic time transect of 82 individuals spanning almost two millennia (800 BCE – 1,000 CE) across Etruria and southern Italy. During the Iron Age, we detect a component of Indo-European-associated steppe ancestry and the lack of recent Anatolian admixture among the putative non-Indo-European-speaking Etruscans. Despite comprising diverse individuals of central European, northern African and Near Eastern ancestry, the local gene pool is largely maintained across the first millennium BCE. This continuity drastically changes during the Roman Imperial period where we report an abrupt population-wide shift to ~50% admixture with eastern Mediterranean ancestry. Finally, we identify northern European components appearing in central Italy during the Early Middle Ages, which thus formed the genetic landscape of present-day Italian populations.

I created approximately the same model as in the previous Turkish DNA thread.

 I created approximately the same model as in the previous Turkish DNA thread. Notice it is not exactly the same because I used only one averaged MLBA Anatolia sample and one Central Asian instead of aggregation.

 Here are some results for comparison. Overall Armenians are more Eastern ( Hajji Firuz Chl ) than Turks which is quite normal. But keep in mind that Hajji Firuz Chl and Anatolia MLBA are not very distant from each other. So it is all about about fifty shades of grey. :) 

Also Central Asian input is NOT equal to East Asian Xiongnu like proto-Turkic ancestry. Karakhanid is already mixed with West Eurasians thus in models it will score higher than Xiongnu. In a same way Armenians will have much higher proto Armenian ancestry (~ >30% of Etio? like ) than pure Steppe.

Fits are good.

Target: Turkish_Southwest

Distance: 1.7298% / 0.01729818

50.2 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA

25.8 KAZ_Karakhanid

12.6 RUS_Catacomb

11.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C

0.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps

Target: Armenian

Distance: 1.3119% / 0.01311855

50.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C

33.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA

9.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps

6.8 RUS_Catacomb

0.0 KAZ_Karakhanid

More closer 

Target: Turkish_Kayseri

Distance: 1.2040% / 0.01203994

43.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA

32.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C

12.6 KAZ_Karakhanid

11.6 RUS_Catacomb

0.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps

More Kur Araxian

Target: Turkish_North

Distance: 1.3360% / 0.01336030

49.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA

23.0 KAZ_Karakhanid

11.0 RUS_Catacomb

10.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps

6.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C


Target: Turkish_Adana

Distance: 1.3456% / 0.01345609

39.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA

34.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C

13.8 KAZ_Karakhanid

12.8 RUS_Catacomb

0.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps

No Central Asian input very Caucasian

Target: Turkish_Trabzon

Distance: 1.7235% / 0.01723541

47.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA

38.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps

9.8 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C

3.6 RUS_Catacomb

0.0 KAZ_Karakhanid


Target: Armenian_Hemsheni

Distance: 1.6564% / 0.01656444

55.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps

32.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA

11.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C

1.4 RUS_Catacomb

0.0 KAZ_Karakhanid

East Turkey low Central Asia

Target: Turkish_East

Distance: 0.8610% / 0.00860996

46.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C

26.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA

13.2 RUS_Catacomb

7.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps

6.8 KAZ_Karakhanid

Influences from Balkanes invisible in this model

Target: Turkish_Istanbul

Distance: 1.8252% / 0.01825198

62.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA

21.6 RUS_Catacomb

12.6 KAZ_Karakhanid

3.8 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C

0.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps

One of highest Central Asian ancestry in Turkey is found in South Anatolia.

Target: Turkish_South

Distance: 1.1391% / 0.01139130

37.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA

26.0 KAZ_Karakhanid

24.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C

11.8 RUS_Catacomb

0.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps

And here the same with Xiongnu but without Central Asian Karakhanid.

Target: Turkish_South

Distance: 1.9764% / 0.01976429

35.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA

31.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C

20.2 RUS_Catacomb

13.2 MNG_Xiongnu_East_Asian

0.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps

A remarkable finding in Syria

 A remarkable finding in Syria. One of the oldest collective burials of warriors in a huge kurgan. Most probably dead in battle. The age is something like 2400-2300bc. Which fits into the start of Akkadian empire and it's wars with Northerners. It would be interesting to see their DNA.

На русском

Recently, I had the opportunity to participate to Pavel Avetisyan's online lecture.

 Recently, I had the opportunity to participate to Pavel Avetisyan's online lecture. He is the director of the Institute of Archeology and Ethnography. The subject was "From the first farmers to early polities "

It was very instructive and especially interesting for me in the sense that many new archeological theories are fully confirmed by DNA research. This is my genetic commentary, of course, because the talk was fully devoted to archeological material.

One of such theories is the concept of "core area" ( see the map ) from which early agriculture and animal husbandry, ( neolithic revolution ) started 12000-10000 years ago.

Although there is no ancient DNA from that area, the existing data speaks in favor of that area (near the historical Aldzenik, present Diyarbakir, Turkey).

Indeed the samples from Neolithic Levant (PPN B) are more northern shifted than those from Epipaleolithic Natufian culture that preceded it. The presence of more northern Y DNA such as H2 and T1a in Levant Neolithic do also point to the migration from North. 

In the neolithic Anatolia (Bonchuklu, Chatal Hoyuk, Barsin) we see more Eastern shift compared to preceding Paleolithic (Pinarbashi).

It is difficult to say something clear about the neolithic layers of Iran's Zagros (Ganj Dareh). Because there are still no samples from Paleolithic Zagros. But the two Mesolitic DNAs from the northeast of Iran (near Turkmenistan) and the subsequent neolithic DNA in Turkmenistan speaks in favor of migration from West of Iran. In addition, the G2b and G2a1 which were found in Early Neolithic of Iran, points to western connections, especially with G2a2 in Anatolia.

Other Neolithic y dna like E-M123, J2b, some J2A branches, have also spread from the nearby of "core area". Additionally all three branches of T1a and naturally the G2 and H2. By the way, this latter was found in Georgian Neolithic. This shows that neolithic settlements in Ararat Valley (Aknashen, Aratashen, Masis Blur) must also have ties to the south west of the historic Armenia.

Pavel Avetisyan ( Պավել Ավետիսյան ) also spoke about Eneolithic (copper age) and Bronze age. But I will mention them separately.

PS And some good news. It is very possible that new paleo DNA will be published from Armenia next year.

An interesting topic that has been overlooked by Armenology is the term RMNN mentioned by the Egyptian pharaoh Thutmosis III in his Asian campaigns.

 An interesting topic that has been overlooked by Armenology is the term RMNN mentioned by the Egyptian pharaoh Thutmosis III in his Asian campaigns.

Some has proposed that this term should be read Ermenen so it could be a cognate of Akkadian Armanu. Ermenen is a place were the heaven relies on his four pillars. Thus a mountainous place.

But others do believe that it is the Lebanon, because Egyptians never ventured deep into Asia. And RMNN refers to mount Lebanon.

Here are quotes from wikipedia.


Another record is by Thutmose III of Egypt, says the people of Ermenen in 1446 BC, and says in their land "heaven rests upon its four pillars".[1] (Thutmose was the first Pharaoh to cross the Euphrates to reach the Armenian Highlands). To this day Kurds and Turks refer to Armenians by Ermeni.


Occurrences of the name have been found in different Middle Bronze Age texts from the library of Ebla,[22] and three of the twelve tablets of the Epic of Gilgamesh. The name is recorded in Ancient Egyptian as Rmnn (𓂋𓏠𓈖𓈖𓈉), where R stood for Canaanite L.[23] The name occurs nearly 70 times in the Hebrew Bible, as לְבָנוֹן.[24


Despite uncertainty Susan Solomon mentioned this term in his book about Armenia.

Diodorus has histories about Assyrian king Ninus and his contemporary Armenian king Barzanes

 Diodorus has histories about Assyrian king Ninus and his contemporary Armenian king Barzanes. Ninus is not attested in Assyrian sources neither Armenians do remember any Barzanes. Yet a term Barzanish seems to have existed in southern parts (Nairi) of historic Armenia. More interestingly it comes as Barzanishtun which would have a transparent Armenian etymology. House of Barzanes.

Another possible affiliated term is probably the Kulibarzini attested as a tribe of Nairi. And another but this time a personal name Utuburshini as a king of Diau. But this two latter terms could be unrelated to first one.

The term Syunik ( old Siwnik' ) is not attested in Urartian texts.

 The term Syunik ( old Siwnik' ) is not attested in Urartian texts. Instead of that we have the name Ṣuluqu and possibly Ṣiluquni. This name is attested later in Armenian period as Cəluk (Ծղուկ) as a canton of Syunik. But occasionally the term Cluk was also used as a synonym of Syunik. 

Jahukyan has proposed a Scythian etymology for the term. Tsuluk means upright, vertical in Shughni an East Iranian language.

Syunik region is not usually considered to be part of Etiuni ( and consequently part of Lchashen culture ) . We have an Iron Age sample from Kapan which is not different from Lchashen samples.

Despite good erymology it is very unlikely that it was a predominantly a Scythian place. Assuming that the term is Scythian this could simply mean that they became a ruling elite there. Later it seems a power shift occured and a new name was used the Siwnik'.

Various theories has been proposed for Siwnik'. 

Petrosyan linked it with Urartian sun God Shiwini.

Others proposed that it come from a term Abar-Siuni which is attested in Tighlat Palassar's campaign in Nairi. Albeit Abar - Siuni location is unknown.

Khorenatsi linked it with the name of Sisakan. I think the transition from Sisak to Siwni is unlikely from linguistic point of view. Despite this Syuni noble family was also called Sisakyan.

I want to clarify my opinion about Anatolian vs Caucasus debate.

 I want to clarify my opinion about Anatolian vs Caucasus debate. I attached a PCA made by Davidski where he features the Hasanlu Tepe sample from Urmia bassein. I added also an orange ellipse which represents the position of modern Armenians on that PCA.

As one can easily note Armenians are located on the CHG ( Caucasian hunters) and Anatolia_N ( Anatolian Neolithic farmers ) axis. Notice some Anatolia_N are grouped with Europe_EN. This is because they are from NW Anatolia (Barcin) while some are more Eastern and Southern shifted and plot with Minoans. This are the farmers from Tepecik Ciftlik site which is in Cappadocia, close to Kayseri.

So returning back to that debate. When I said Armenia is not Anatolia neither Caucasus I was having this image in my head. Armenians are sort of the Middle Man between this two regions. 

Each time You read about Caucasian ancestry in Greece, South Europe or Anatolia most of the time You must understand that it came from historic Armenia rather than Caucasian range. Just one example are the Anatolia_BA three samples. They are definitely shifted to East relative to Neolithic period.

On the other hand each time You read about Anatolian ancestry in Caucasus ( and sometimes in North Iran ) then You shouldn't doubt that most of that "Western" shift in Caucasus is from Armenia. It can be demonstrated both by Y DNA and by archaeology.

Caucasian Eneolithic samples are absent from this PCA but You can easily imagine their place btw Armenians and CHG.

Over time various migrations made all this three regions very close to each other. You can easily see that with grey clouds which represents modern pops. Nevertheless the old clinal legacy is still perceptible.

In more historic times some North Caucasians drifted away from Near East because they acquired Steppe/East Asia while Anatolia became Turkish which also partly pulled them away from old pops but overall You can see that Near East grey cross and Caucasus grey circles are much closer to each other than they were in the past.

I also can add archaeologic arguments why I think that Armenia was a thing of its own but connected to both regions. Also probably linguistic arguments. I said many times that I don't see much evidence of strong presence of Caucasian speakers in Armenia in old times. 

And finally Armenian Highlands was not only a bridge but an important splitter and divider in Paleolithic times. It is the existence of this massive mountain block coupled with Zagros and Mesopotamian deserts that splitted the Paleolithic Near East into two distinct ecoregional zones. Caucasus-Iran in the East and Anatolia-Levant in the West. I will dedicate a special thread to this very important subject and also why I said that from geological point of view the term Lesser Caucasus is not a useful term.

So returning back to that question. Are we Anatolians or Caucasians? Neither of them but we are related to both of them and we shouldn't alienate from us this two regions. Quite contrary we must show interest in their culture and history. Because we are related.

Very interesting news from Greece.

 Very interesting news from Greece. A new paper discussing the transition to Bronze Age. Also new samples from North Greece. 

Only two y dna (J2 and G2) . MBA samples with high Steppe are females so no R1b this time but in most likelihood the Steppe was introduced by them. And some other yet unknown HG.

There was also a Caucasus Iran shift at EBA.

Here are the proportions

The dates of Steppe arrival ~2300bc (2600-2000bc) fits into Catacomb period rather than later KMK (Multi Cordoned ware). So it seems KMK was Thracian related rather than Greek .

The authors don't give definitive answers for the LBA Myceneans origin. Keeping open the door for Near Eastern ( Armenian theory) origin. 

Anyway this data strongly boosts the Steppic origins of Greeks.



• Bronze Age (BA) Helladic, Cycladic, and Minoan genomes from the Aegean were sequenced

• 3,000 BCE Aegeans are homogeneous and derive ancestry mainly from Neolithic farmers

• Neolithic Caucasus-like and BA Pontic-Caspian Steppe-like gene flow shaped the Aegean

• Present-day Greeks are genetically similar to 2,000 BCE Aegeans from Northern Greece


The Cycladic, the Minoan, and the Helladic (Mycenaean) cultures define the Bronze Age (BA) of Greece. Urbanism, complex social structures, craft and agricultural specialization, and the earliest forms of writing characterize this iconic period. We sequenced six Early to Middle BA whole genomes, along with 11 mitochondrial genomes, sampled from the three BA cultures of the Aegean Sea. The Early BA (EBA) genomes are homogeneous and derive most of their ancestry from Neolithic Aegeans, contrary to earlier hypotheses that the Neolithic-EBA cultural transition was due to massive population turnover. EBA Aegeans were shaped by relatively small-scale migration from East of the Aegean, as evidenced by the Caucasus-related ancestry also detected in Anatolians. In contrast, Middle BA (MBA) individuals of northern Greece differ from EBA populations in showing ∼50% Pontic-Caspian Steppe-related ancestry, dated at ca. 2,600-2,000 BCE. Such gene flow events during the MBA contributed toward shaping present-day Greek genomes

And here a quote from another book not this paper.

"Middle Helladic period between 2200 and 2000 BC a wave of Greek tribes, later self-styled Hellenes, poured into the southern part of the Balkan Peninsula. They were coming to Aegeida from the north. During the excavations of many settlements, the Early Helladic cultural layer is separated from the subsequent ones by a layer of ash. Other Early Helladic settlements were abandoned altogether. The conquerors were called Minias. "

When discussing the names attested in Iron Age Anatolia Diakonov admits that most names recorded by Assyrians in west of Euphrates are Luwian except one the Gurdi ( = Kurtis in Luwian ).

 When discussing the names attested in Iron Age Anatolia Diakonov admits that most names recorded by Assyrians in west of Euphrates are Luwian except one the Gurdi ( = Kurtis in Luwian ). At last three different Gurdi are attested and at last one of them the Gurdi of Atuna kingdom left an inscription in Luwian. His father name is Ashus remarkably close to Ascanius.

The other one Gurdi the Kulummean is known to have killed the Assyrian king Sargon II at 705 bc. After this sudden event Assyria lost significantly it's influence in Anatolia.

And another Gurdi is credited to found the Til-Garimu ( = biblical Togarma?)

Kossian propose a theory in which all this Gurdis are of eastern Mushkian origin and not Luwians. They could have belong even to same dinasty. 

Diakonov considered them as of Thraco-Phrygian origin. 

It's worth to note that a similar name is attested in Armenian records. The Ara Kardos.

Another remarkable thing that this name is close to Kardu-choi/Corduene. But this could be a chance similarity.

Ancient DNA from Luwian kingdoms in Anatolia can be very helpful to solve partially this kind of puzzles.

Thursday, April 29, 2021

Closeness to Armenian calculated by Jahukyan.

 Closeness to Armenian calculated by Jahukyan. Surprisingly Armenian shares more features with Indic than Iranian.

Now that we have a E-V13 of obvious European (Paleobalkanic) origin in ancient Central Asian Steppes we can speculate on similarities of the name of Dacians and Iranian Dahae and off course the Diau / Tao in ancient Armenia.

Now that we have a E-V13 of obvious European (Paleobalkanic) origin in ancient Central Asian Steppes we can speculate on similarities of the name of Dacians and Iranian Dahae and off course the Diau / Tao in ancient Armenia.

What is the direction? From Iranian to Balkanian or the inverse? Or maybe chance similarity? Or common origin?

Furthermore I think the transformation of Daoi into Dakoi can be simply explained by the -k' plural suffix present in Armenian and possibly in some Balkanic languages.


According to Strabo's Geographica, the original name of the Dacians was Δάοι "Daoi".[2][22] The name Daoi (one of the ancient Geto-Dacian tribes) was certainly adopted by foreign observers to designate all the inhabitants of the countries north of Danube that had not yet been conquered by Greece or Rome.[12][12]


The ethnographic name Daci is found under various forms within ancient sources. Greeks used the forms Δάκοι "Dakoi" (Strabo, Dio Cassius, and Dioscorides) and Δάοι "Daoi" (singular Daos).[23][2][24][a][25][22] The form Δάοι "Daoi" was frequently used according to Stephan of Byzantium.[17]


There are similarities between the ethnonyms of the Dacians and those of Dahae (Greek Δάσαι Δάοι, Δάαι, Δαι, Δάσαι Dáoi, Dáai, Dai, Dasai; Latin Dahae, Daci), an Indo-European people located east of the Caspian Sea, until the 1st millennium BC. Scholars have suggested that there were links between the two peoples since ancient times.[30][31][32][17] The historian David Gordon White has, moreover, stated that the "Dacians ... appear to be related to the Dahae".[33] (Likewise White and other scholars also believe that the names Dacii and Dahae may also have a shared etymology – see the section following for further details.)


Opinions on the origins of the name Daci are divided. Some scholars consider it to originate in the Indo-European *dha-k-, with the stem *dhe- "to put, to place", while others think that the name Daci originates in *daca – "knife, dagger" or in a word similar to dáos, meaning "wolf" in the related language of the Phrygians.[38][39]

One hypothesis is that the name Getae originates in the Indo-European *guet- 'to utter, to talk'.[40][38] Another hypothesis is that "Getae" and "Daci" are Iranian names of two Iranian-speaking Scythian groups that had been assimilated into the larger Thracian-speaking population of the later "Dacia".[41][42]

The L1a1-M27 found in Areni cave (Chalcolithic period 6200 ybp) is now uploaded in YFull. ( I1642 )

 The L1a1-M27 found in Areni cave (Chalcolithic period 6200 ybp) is now uploaded in YFull. ( I1642 )

L1a1 is rare in modern Near East. It is popular in India but this is due to 4700 year old founder effect. In South Asia it is especially popular among Kalash people.

Only one Armenian from FTDNA is positive for M27. What is his exact relation to ancient Areni person is not yet clear but it is quite possible that he will be from the same subbranch.

Another L1a1-M27 potentially close to Areni lineage was found in ancient Central Asia (1700 ybp , Hunnic period ) . It seems L1a1 had a rare presence in BMAC. Most L found there are from L1a2 branch but not L1a1. After BMAC it made part of Saka community and reached even China.

In sum it seems that L1a1 ( 8300 year old lineage) expanded in Chalcolithic period from NW Iran and South Caucasus. In most likelihood it reached India during Harappan civilization period. Ancient DNA from Indus valley civilization is needed to prove this theory.

PS. We have five samples from Chalcolithic Areni cave. Three males. All L1a1. And two females.