Armen Petrosyan's paper on the origins of Bagratid dinasty

 Armen Petrosyan's paper on the origins of Bagratid dinasty. He also mentions Hovann Simonian's opinion about the possible haplogroup of Bagratids. Hovann is the admin of Armenian DNA project and other projects.

In ancient texts they are two versions of Bagratuni (Bagratid ) origin.

The first one is the Khorenatsi's opinion who give Jewish origin from a certain Shambat.

The second one can be called Sebeos version, in which Bagratuni have native Haykian origin.

Petrosyan like most scholars agree that the version of Jewish origin is a post-Christian invention. Khorenatsi himself was also aware of the second opinion and he advise to not believe in it.

So let's look closer to the native version.

In native version the founding fathers of this family are the Bagam and Bagarat. Their offsprings get the Angeltun province ( House of Angel ) as their own domain. For this reason Bagarat was also known as Angel (Անգեղ) and he was deified by pagan people.

They are good reasons to believe that ancient Armenians had a chtonic god known as Angel. This term has a good Armenian etymology. Meaning either ugly or invisible. From the IE root *wel- meaning to see, which in Armenian gives gel (գեղ ) meaning beauty but also appearance. So Angel would be either ugly or unseen, without appearance. It's remarkable that the Greek meaning of underworld god Hades is similar. It means unseen. Another indirect evidence of the importance of underworld god in ancient Armenia is the fact that the chief god of Hayasa was the equivalent of Nergal. Incidently in Armenian scripts the term Angel is used for Nergal.

So it's safe to assume that the pre-Christian legend about the Bagratuni origin was related to this Angel god. Most probably they were claiming descendancy from this god. With the arrival of Iranian influence a new term was coined based on Iranian god names. Bagarat itself descend from the Iranian name Bagadata which means god given or son/gift of god. So instead of being gift/son of Angel they became gift/son of Baga.

It's remarkable that in Khorenatsi's book the owner of Angeltun is the Tork'. This Tork' was written also Towrk' ( Տուրք ). The Tork' form is probably an error, an omission of w. Towrk' in Armenian means gift so basically Turk' / Towrk' Angeleai means gift of Angel. A similar meaning as for Bagadata, gift of Baga. Once more we see that such a concept (gift of Angel) existed in ancient Armenia.

Now all this indirect evidence is nice, but we need something else to check the validity of this theories. Fortunately DNA gives new opportunities. Thanks to efforts of Hovann we have a good candidate for Bagratuni Y dna, which is the I2a2b. The evidence is based on modern people affiliated to Georgian and Armenian noble families like Tsitsishvilis and Hasan Jalalyans. If Bagratuni really had this Y dna then this would mean that they had native origin because we know for sure that practically all modern I2a2b descend from one person who lived in Trialeti Vanadzor culture. So this would mean that ancient pre Christian legends about Bagratuni origins were quite realistic.

Now returning to Jewish connections. It's remarkable that inside I2a2b there is a small Jewish cluster. The age of separation is old but this do not mean much because the real adoption of Judaism could have occured later. So a person of possible Bagratuni or Armenian ( Georgian also, but less likely ) affiliation at some point adopted Judaism . It's possible that this story was echoed in later records.

The link is below

In just 10 years of paleogenetic research Europeans recovered the genetic history of their continent

 In just 10 years of paleogenetic research Europeans recovered the genetic history of their continent. Off course this became possible because of decennies of intense archaeologic studies.

The last paper from Posth et al. 2023 about Paleolithic Europe give answers to numerous questions. Let's hope we will have a similar paper about West Asia also.

Humans settled in Europe 45.000 years ago. The genetic history is divided in two major periods. Before the LGM and after. ~20.000ybp. The same by the way is true about most Eurasia (Armenia included) Only the most warmest regions were not affected by the last Glacial period.

The first settlers of Europe had the Y dna C1. Then haplogroup I appears with Gravettian culture 35.000 years ago. Given that hg I has common origin with haplogroup J it's quite possible that it entered Europe via Caucasus although a migration via Anatolia is also possible.

Before the LGM the hg I was not popular but things change after LGM. 20.000 ybp a new culture forms in Europe known as Epigravettian and it has strong association with WHG and I2. So the homeland of WHG and I2 is the Balkans. WHG stands for Western European Hunter Gatherers. While in East Europe a different group formed known as EHG associated with R1.

EHG and associated with it subjects like ANE, CHG and Iran and Armenian Neolithic deserves a special thread.

Here I will continue about the WHG which became the predominant population in all Europe before the arrival of farmers.

8500 years ago farmers (mostly G2) enters Europe from Anatolia and local European WHG populations decline substantially. But some time after there is a strong resurgence of I2 and a moderate increase of WHG which never increase over 20-30% in Europe. Today highest affinity to WHG is found in Northest Europe. WHG had an unusual phenotype. Rather dark skin and blue eyes while EHG had more light skin and dark eyes.

Modern Armenians don't have WHG. But do have Y dna I2 (3-3.5%). The I2a2b branch, old name is I2c2. The oldest cases of I2a2b are found in Europe. We now know that this branch came to Armenia 4500 years ago with Steppe pastoralist groups from North of Caucasus who also introduced R1b-Z2103. It was a probably a minor lineage in those groups but expanded a lot with Trialeti Vanadzor culture. Practically all modern cases of I2a2b are from Trialeti Vanadzor Culture. Even if they live in Europe.

We don't know what languages were speaking the WHG foragers in Paleolithic. Some believe that Basque is a WHG language. Some think that nobody speaks their language. In any case Neolithic Europe almost certainly had languages of Anatolian origin. And Etruscan (Tyrsenian family) is a good candidate of being an Anatolian farmers language.

Whatever languages they were speaking the current distribution of I2 and I1 in the world reflects mostly Indo European migrations and massive founder effects. The current young I2a1 branch in Balkans is related to Slavic people. The I1 and some I2 are related to proto Germanic people while the I2a2b in West Asia is an Armenic lineage. (Map 2)

A tribe Parnaki is attested in Iron Age Assyrian texts (Esarhadon period) in North East of modern Iraq.

 A tribe Parnaki is attested in Iron Age Assyrian texts (Esarhadon period) in North East of modern Iraq. This tribal name is remarkable because the name P'arnak (Փառնակ) is present in the Khorenatsi's list of patriarchs. It can be found also in toponyms. Kusti-Parnes in Artsakh and P'arnac' in Sasun region. Also Parnatun. It's not granted that all this terms derive from the same origin. Nevertheless it's another example when we see that terms that appear in Khorenatsi are not simply random names. Or names that appear after Achaemenid empire.

There is no much doubt that Pharnacids in Phrygian satrapy or probably Pharnaces in Pontic kingdom derive their name from Achaemenid influence. But this tribe's example also shows that some of this terms were already present in the vicinity of historic Armenia before Persian rule. It's even possible that some offshoots of this Parnaki tribe became rulers in Achaemenid period.

The name P'arnak is usually derived from the Iranian word farnah meaning glory. It's remarkable that the closest form is the Ossetian and the reconstructed Scythian *farna. In Armenian the Iranian [f] was rendered as p' փ։

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/.../Reconstruct.../h%C3%BAHarnah

I crushed the wicked Parnaki, who live in the land Tīl-Aššurri, which is called Pittānu in the language of the people of the land Meḫrānu.

http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/rinap/Q003230

During the construction of a mall in southern parts of Yerevan an Urartian stone tomb was found with multiple burial urns and other artefacts

 During the construction of a mall in southern parts of Yerevan an Urartian stone tomb was found with multiple burial urns and other artefacts. Currently the tomb is accessible to visitors.

One remarkable finding is an inscription in unknown script and language. Earlier in this group I mentioned that in some Lchashen cyclopean forts short inscriptions were found in Sovietic period. Those inscriptions are considered as fake by some scholars. But this finding shows that there was a real diversity of scripts in Iron Age Armenia. Another type is the ieroglyphic script.

This particular inscription is too short to make a judgement. But if new similar inscriptions are found then we can better understand those unknown inscriptions.

https://fb.watch/jpzGVRTp4v/

A group of Armenian and Polish archaeologists has found a rich burial of a couple in Metsamor

 A group of Armenian and Polish archaeologists has found a rich burial of a couple in Metsamor. Most probably spouses. The date is around 3200 years before present. So it's Lchashen culture period. Crosses similar to Celtic style are remarkable.

Metsamor was an important fortified city in Early Iron Age. With advanced metallurgic and jewelry industry. You can see similar artefacts from previous excavations in the link below. They are exposed in Metsamor museum.

https://hushardzan.am/archives/26218

The Polish source.

https://naukawpolsce.pl/.../news%2C95491%2Cpolsko...#

I had a discussion with a person who knows how to extract Y dna data from samples.

 I had a discussion with a person who knows how to extract Y dna data from samples. He said that the Chinese theytree service is not as reliable as Yfull. They upload too much low coverage samples. So caution is needed with their results. It will be a good practice to double check their results with FTDNA service if the sample is available there also.

If You notice a discrepancies between FTDNA and the Chinese theytree results please report here. Especially if they pertain to ancient Armenian samples.

In any case this do not affect my yesterday's thread because Lazaridis also says that there was at last one M269 positive but negative to L23 which is equal to PF7562. The number I14057.

An important update on R1b-M269 in ancient Armenia in Etiuni period.

 An important update on R1b-M269 in ancient Armenia in Etiuni period.

Large numbers of samples are now uploaded to Chinese theytree service and we have three cases of R1b-PF7562 in Bronze Age Armenia. From this three cases at last one was predicted as such by Lazaridis in the Southern Arc paper's supplements. The I14057 from Bardzryal site in Lori. The other two cases are from Karashamb in Kotayk and Keti in Shirak province. The one case is somewhat doubtful but whatever.

This branch is important because more than five cases of PF7562 are found in ancient Mycenean Greece. Z2103 seems to be less frequent in ancient Greece. In Armenia it was the inverse.

Whatever the case we can now say that both Z2103 and PF7562 are Yamna/Catacomb lineages. Both have the same TMRCA. An alternative origin of PF7563 becomes less realistic now.

Currently the only subbranch we miss is the Z2110 but given it's small number in modern Armenia ( although we have two person from this branch in this group ) we must be more patient.

If there was a some slim chance for Balkanian theory to resurge with PF7562 it's now game over for it. We can say that PF7562 in Armenia is from Etiuni.

https://www.theytree.com/tree/R-PF7558

PS. I think I will have some news about Mushki Urumu folks. I need to wait some patterns to be confirmed.

About Yervanduni ( old Eruanduni , Greek Orontid ) origins.

 About Yervanduni ( old Eruanduni , Greek Orontid ) origins.

It is frequent that a piece of information detached from his real context can create more confusion than understanding. One such information is the inscription from Pergamon city about the supposedly Bactrian origin of Orontes satrap who ruled Armenia in 4th century BC. The one who is also mentioned by Xenophon in Anabasis.

Elcibekyan presents and discuss this inscription. Here some important things.

+ The inscription is not left by Orontes himself but local Pergamon people after his death.

+ The inscription describes an event when Orontes deported Pergamon city people to another location close to sea coast/gulf.

+ This deportation occured when Orontes rebelled against the Persian king. It was during the famous Great Satraps rebellion around 362BC. The exact reason of this rebellion is not known but it seems Orontes was unhappy when the Persian king wanted to remove him from Armenia to Western Anatolia as a satrap. So he organized a rebellion in Western Anatolia after which the Persian king has no choice than to return him back to Armenia.

This same Orontes son of Artasura is also mentioned in Nemrut inscriptions. He is the number 6 in the second picture. From Nemrut inscription we learn once more that his father was the Artasura. But we also learn that he had a grandfather also named Aruandes/Orontes.

This number 4 Aruandes/Orontes might have ruled Armenia before 450BC and neither Graeco-Roman sources neither Armenian sources have no information about him. Nevertheless it is quite obvious that Xenophon's era Orontes (number 6) was not a newly arrived person in Armenia. At last his grandfather also ruled Armenia. And it is quite unlikely that he came to Armenia from Bactria then moved to Western Anatolia to organize a rebellion there for getting back to Armenia. That doesn't make much sense.

So why do this confusing term Bactria is there in the inscription?

Well Elcibekyan gives a plausible explanation. In ancient times Bactria was also known as Zariaspa. A similar name existed in ancient southern Armenia. Mountain and a range Zarasp close to those places from were Orontid dinasty possibly originated ( mount Siah Kuh near modern Turkish-Iranian border). It's quite possible that Pergamon people simply confused the Zarasp in Armenia with Zariaspa in Bactria. And erroneously assumed that Orontes came from Bactria.

I think that makes a lot off sense and the fact that an unknown Yervand ruled Armenia in the first half of 5th century further raises the chances that Yervand Sakavakiats mentioned by Khorenatsi was a real person that ruled Armenia around 580-560BC.

One possible way to know the language(s) spoken in Kur-Araxian culture is to examine the onomastics in those places were there was continuity

 One possible way to know the language(s) spoken in Kur-Araxian culture is to examine the onomastics in those places were there was continuity.

One such place is the Malatya-Elazig (Kharberd/Harpoot) region that I marked with green circle. In this region the KA settlements evolved into more advanced towns were a type of painted pottery was made until 2000BC. In Middle Bronze Age (2000-1600bc) this tradition continued but new influences from South appear with Khabur ware while close to 1600BC influences from West, from plain Anatolia become stronger.

After 1600BC the region was incorporated into Hittite empire and became known as Ishuwa.

The main ethnicity of Ishuwa is unknown. They are no native texts. Three kings are known from last periods, all have Hurrian names and based on that some proposed that it was predominantly a Hurrian place.

Nevertheless king names are not always a good indication of real ethnic situation. Mitanni had Aryan kings but was a Hurrian kingdom. Hittite empire had kings with Hurrian names yet it was still Hittite. Babylon was ruled by Amorites, Kassites and Chaldeans yet it's main language was East Semitic Akkadian derived. Such examples are numerous.

For this reason Aram Kosyan (based on Laroche's etymology) examined the names of local Ishuwan chieftains, elders and rebels. Surprisingly the most frequent group consists of Hittite-Luwian names. There is only one Hurrian name Kumarpi, few Kashkean and Indo-Iranian names. There is also one name Mita that looks like Phrygian name but a presence of any real Phrygian in that region is unlikely. A similar to Mita name is attested in Armenic Etiuni: the Muida. Given that this name appears in Iron Age as Mita of Mushki so the most parsimonious explanation is that it's related to Mushki, and maybe Etiuni. Although a Luwian etymology also exists but in my opinion it's problematic.

Anyway returning to main subject, it's somewhat unexpected to have such result. There can be two explanation.

1. Either those Hittite names were there since Kur-Araxian period.

2. Either they appear with Hittite conquest.

We don't have ancient DNA from Middle and Late Bronze Ages (2000-1200BC) in Ishuwa region but we have a sample dated at 2400BC from EBA. It's ART001. It's more southern shifted than other three samples from EBA period. This extra Levantine shift can indicate that Hurrian speakers infiltrated there later from South which opens a gate that Kur-Arax in that region was really speaking Anatolian IE languages.

This unexpected result is further reinforced if we take into account that the kingdom Armi dates (before 2250BC) overlap with Kur-Araxian culture in the Cilicia where it was located according a recent paper. Kroonen suggested a strong Hittite presence in Armi based on Eblaite inscriptions.

Another potentially IE term Aratta also coincide with Kur-Araxian period. It was probably located somewhere in North West Iran, where in Iron Age a river Aratta is attested.

Offcourse we must wait ancient DNA to further confirm or dismiss this theory. Also we must keep in mind that Kur-Araxian horizon was quite large and harboured other languages. There is little doubt that Nakh-Daghestani in North East Caucasus descend from KA. Also Hurrian languages were probably spoken in south of Van, Hakkari region KA settlements. In any case it seems that the main expansion of Hurrian occured in MBA with Khabur ware.

According to some sources Darius appointed his closest friend Hydarnes as satrap of Armenia after the unsuccessful rebellion of Armenia and Media against Persians (around 522BC).

 According to some sources Darius appointed his closest friend Hydarnes as satrap of Armenia after the unsuccessful rebellion of Armenia and Media against Persians (around 522BC). The Persian pronunciation of this name is Vidrna.

Some scholars proposed that Erwanduni (Orontid) dynasty was descending from Hydarnes grandson. Others proposed that Hydarnes and already present Erwanduni became relatives via intermarriages. Apparently at last three different Hydarnes ruled Armenia before the Orontes mentioned in Xenophon.

Anyway all this are just hypothesis. But an interesting thing is that this name can have an old presence in Armenia.

Aram Kosyan discuss the ethnic structure of Ishuwa and mentions a name Uitarna- for which he gives a possible Indo-Iranian origin. The name is attested in Late Bronze Age.

In Urartian texts a land and a population group Uiteruhi is mentioned somewhere in upper Arax. So another possibility is that the Ishuwan Uitarna- simply descend from this nearby tribe and not from Indo-Iranians.

And another possibility is that Uiteruhi tribe itself is of Indo-Iranian stock and subsequently the Uitarna- name also.

This raises the possibility that the three successive rulers named Hydarnes in Satrapic Armenia are from local stock and not appointed by Darius.

Offcourse without any new ancient record this question will remain unsolved. To further complicate the matter the Uiteruhi is suspiciously close to Armenian term *wetar ( modern Getar , term attested in Ptolemy) . So it's possible that some of this similar looking terms have different etiology.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydarnes

The most comprehensive description of South Caucasian archaeology by Antonio Sagona. From Paleolithic to Iron Age

 The most comprehensive description of South Caucasian archaeology by Antonio Sagona. From Paleolithic to Iron Age.

This book is a must read for those who want to better understand the deep history of that region. Also with the advent of paleogenetics it becomes an indispensable source of information for interpreting the DNA results.

Some Sagona's ideas are not confirmed by aDNA. Like the Samtavro culture in Georgia is not exactly the same as Lchashen. Also he was sceptic about Steppe migration in Middle Bronze age ( see the attached excerpt ) but overall the archaeology quite well how Caucasian populations formed and evolved.

See the link in the comments.

PS regularly I will add other interesting links about the archaeology in this thread.

The origin of Thracians is interesting from Armenian perspective for two reasons.

 The origin of Thracians is interesting from Armenian perspective for two reasons. First to check the Kortland's proposal about close relation between Armenian language and Thracian. The second reason is to verify the validity of ancient Greek claims about the presence of Thracian tribes near or in Armenia.

We have now enough samples from ancient Bulgaria to have some conclusions. See the first chart from Neolithic to Middle Ages of Bulgaria.

To be short the answer to the first question is No. Genetics do not support the idea of special relatedness of Thracian and Armenian.

The reason for this is that Proto Thracian community was a complex mixture of Yamna/Catacomb (R1b-M269, I2-P78), then Srubna ( Indo - Iranian R1a-Z93 ) and finally of local European Neolithic Farmers from whom they got their most frequent Y dna. The E-V13 which was making some 80-90% of Thracian Y dna in Iron Age Bulgaria.

Ancient Iron Age Thracian DNA is relatively homogenous. Compared to Bronze Age there is decrease of Steppe and increase in Euro Farmers ancestry. This type of ancestry persists in Bulgaria in Antic era until the arrival of Slavic people who change once more the genetics of Bulgaria. You can see that in samples from Middle Ages.

In Bronze Age Bulgaria (3200-1100bc) there is two important streams of migrations. One from Steppe the other from Anatolia. By Anatolia I mean the type of ancestry that had genes from Armenian Highlands. In the chart it is represented by "Central farmers". It's not high but it's there as in Crete and other Greek islands BA.

Nevertheless Thracians do not directly descend from those Bronze Age populations but rather from a poorly sampled region in Romania where the Carpathian mountains acted as a sort of barrier that preserved European Neolithic ancestry much better. In my opinion Proto Daco-Thracian population formed there and around 1200BC it expanded to South toward Bulgaria and to East toward Ukraine and probably further East. A E-V13 and I2-P78 was found as East as in Kazakhstan. Although this can be explained by Cimmerian and Scythian back and forth migrations after 900BC in modern Ukraine. It seems Scythians assimilated some Thracians.

A possible linguistic evidence of Thracian presence in East is the term Vardanes ( the Roman era name of river Kuban ) Compare this name with river Vardari in Macedonia, also of Thracian origin. Another example is the river Terek which is linked to Traikos, although it has a NEC etymology also. A possible genetic evidence is an ancient sample from Iron Age North.Caucasus (Koban culture) with obvious European origin. They are also theories that cities like Partaw (modern Barda ) and C'urtaw in historic Armenia do have the pecular Thracian root dava (city). Also the native Armenian word jur (water) has the exact parallel in Thracian.

https://tied.verbix.com/project/glossary/thra.html

In sum it's not huge. But a possibility that a small group of Thracians reached North Caucasus and moved to South is real. Even more the presence of small number of E-V13 in Artsakh and Udi village Vardashen makes such an Iron Age migration very likely (1200-900BC). The only thing we don't know is that who introduced the E-V13 to South Caucasus. Was it a real Thracian migration or via Scythians / Cimmerians.

Keep in mind that the few cases of E-V13 in most western Armenians are not via Caucasus but rather from Balkans.

In any case the E-V13 is low in Armenians. Less than 1%. So it's presence is not directly related to Armenian ethnogenesis. We have quite large sample size from ancient Republic of Armenia and no single E-V13 was found there. So there is no particular reasons to believe that any Thracian tribe had deep impact on Iron Age events of Armenia.

PS The reader may wonder why I place the origins of a Levantine haplotype E in Romania. The reason for this is ancient DNA. E-V13 was a rare Y dna in Neolithic Europe ultimately from Levant. It reached Romania and Western Ukraine we're it became part of Yamna related groups. It was still missing in Bronze Age Balkans. No single V13 from Bronze Age. But some time after 1200BC it had a dramatic expansion associated initially with Thracians. While later the E-V13 integrated in numerous surrounding ethnic groups. Albanians, Greeks (via Dorian's?) Slavs, Scythians, Romans and even Germans. E-V13 was found in Visigoth samples from antic Spain

The Armenian word giwl / gel (գիւղ) meaning village has different proposed etymologies.

 The Armenian word giwl / gel (գիւղ) meaning village has different proposed etymologies. Jahukyan compare it with Latin villa, Acharyan consider it as having uncertain origin. Hrach Martirosyan propose an interesting etymology, which is further reinforced by an Urartian term.

He derives it from *weli and compares it with Greek parallels meaning assembly of people, crowd, derived from the same root.

Incidently there is also an Urartian term ueli meaning crowd, army.

As for later semantic shift from crowd to village he demonstrates other examples where such a shifts occured.

It's interesting that proto-Turkic word *agil from which is derived the famous word aul has both meanings as village and military camp. More remarkable is that it's close to Armenian giwl and Finnic kyla (village). Pedersen thinks that the proto-Turkic word is a loanword from Armenian giwl. Although those similarities can be chance coincidence, because of huge distance separating them. Another possibility is that it's a loanword from an unknown IE or Uralic? language.

The Van-Urmia ware (or Urmia ware) culture.

 The Van-Urmia ware (or Urmia ware) culture. Other names used in post Sovietic countries are Karmir Vank or Kyzil Vank culture. This name is derived from a site in Nakhichevan.

This pottery appeared in Middle Bronze Age after the Kura-Araxes culture. Probably after the 2200/2000BC and ends around 1400/1200BC. It was initially related to the developments in South Caucasus MBA cultures like Trialeti Vanadzor but later evolved on it's own.

The main information about this culture comes from North West Iran. Haftavan tepe and Geoy tepe. Unfortunately despite the large number of ancient DNA from that region we don't have any sample that can be securely linked to Urmia ware tradition.

The reason for this is that in Middle and Late Bronze Age period there were other potteries circulating in Urmia basin. One of them from Dinkha tepe is related to Khabur ware. A type of pottery prominent in North Mesopotamia. Ancient DNA confirmed it's link with Mesopotamia. (See links in comments).

This means that the map attached shouldn't be taken at face value. The situation both in TVC and Van-Urmia lands was more complicated than it is painted.

Nevertheless despite the absence of any ancient DNA we can make some deductions with indirect methods.

As I previously noted the TVC>Lchashen group practically didn't have any R1b-Y4364. Only one case was found in Karashamb while the absolute majority was R1b-L584.

But modern Armenians do have both Y4364 and L584 which means that this branch was "hiding" in a different culture and place.

The best candidate for harbouring Y4364 is the Van-Urmia culture. There are some lines of evidences for this. First R1b-Y4364 was found in Iron Age period in North West Iran. Modern distribution also favours more southern distribution of Y4364. It's age also fits to that period. Van-Urmia folk also migrated to west.

But this R1b branch is not the only haplotype that can be linked to Van Urmia ware. The other one is the J2a-YP879. It's age and specific distribution in Armenians do favour the idea that it formed in Middle Bronze Age Van basin and expanded from there. Indeed it was found in Iron Age Urartian period.

With time we will learn more about other haplotypes also. Now the most interesting thing is that despite having common origins TVC and Van-Urmia were not interested to have contacts with each other. No single case of I2c2 was found in NW Iran despite the fact that it was prominent in TVC lands. This is a strong indication that TVC/Lchashen group and Van-Urmia had different identities.

Here is a list of various possibilities.

1. Van-Urmia was proto-Urartian. Not in a sense of kingdom but as ancestral to Urartian language speakers.

2. Van-Urmia was an IE culture which was speaking a sister language related to Lchashen/Etiuni. In this scenario proto Urartian would be an offshoot of Khabur ware that moved to North.

3. Other possibilities are more complicated scenarios. Like mix of Hurro-Urartian and IE with possible influences from other neighbouring languages. The presence of terms starting with R, like city Riyar or land Ruisa with his king Rasu indicates a presence of non-HU, non-Hittite and non-Armenic groups in the Van basin.

Over time with more samples we will learn more about Van-Urmia culture and it's descendants in Iron Age. It's quite possible that Mannaeans are also descending ultimately from this culture.

* The map is from Raffaelel Biscione's "The Roots of the Urartian Kingdom"

See also...

The missing piece from R1b puzzle. The R1b-Y4364

Below is the link about this finding.

 Below is the link about this finding.

The link with Karin ( ancient name of Erzurum) is the most likely version, but a possible link with Kars can't be ruled out also. The reason of this is that Kars is the plural form of Kar. While in Urartian Kar would give something like Karni or Karini.

Alternatively both Kars and Karin stem from the same root.

Karin is mentioned in Strabo's texts as Carenitis.

https://arkeonews.net/urartian-king-argishtis-shield.../

Samples from Nevali Chori. (Wang 2023)

 Samples from Nevali Chori. (Wang 2023)

Nevali Çori is a site close to Portasar (Gobekle tepe)

NEV030 is Iron Age

NEV020 and NEV021 are Roman Empire

NEV009 is Neolithic PPNB 3 layer

BAJ022 is from South Levant Neolithic

030 seems to be close to Urfa Armenians, although it's not granted that he is related to Armenians.

PS I didn't added Cayonu in my list, but it seems they are the closest to NEV009

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